SPEAKER_01 0:01

As you start managing multiple layers of teams, what are the let's say top three things you will start to think about? I think talents, how do you recognize the best people on your team, how do you empower them? And second is organizational efficiency. The interesting story here, or the analogy I will share, is we always say organization is a bit like a garden. If you don't prune, once in a while, things kind of start to work over each other. Rose and responsibilities, swim lines, etc. And then finally is how do you establish the right KPIs and business goals that it's aligned with the business direction?

Hitesh Chudasama 0:37

Hello everyone. Thanks for joining. Today's guest is Zhu Zhou, simply known as Z, a technology and risk executive whose career has spent financial services, fintech, and some of the world's most influential marketplaces, including Uber and eBay. Z began his career answering customer calls at a credit card company before moving into data, analytics, risk management, and eventually executive leadership. In our conversation, he shares how those early experiences shaped his customer first mindset, how trust enables marketplace growth, and what leaders must learn as they begin managing larger and more complex organizations. We also explore how AI is changing risk and trust, the importance of making career decisions with your whole life in mind, and why navigating discomfort can often lead to the greatest growth. I hope you enjoyed this conversation and find practical insights to help you navigate your own career.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Welcome to the show. Really great to have you here. Likewise, really nice to be on the show. It's a privilege. And uh also I just want to clarify, you know, I'm here at personal capacity and I'll be more than happy to share some of my personal experiences with you and the audience.

Hitesh Chudasama 1:49

Wonderful. You build an impressive career spanning technology, marketplaces, payments, and risk leadership, including executive roles at Uber and now at eBay. What stands out to me is that your journey has unfolded alongside some of the biggest shifts in the digital economy. As we have discovered on this podcast, careers make a lot more sense when looking backwards than they do while living them. So before we talk about how you have navigated your journey, let's start at the beginning. If you could share with us a little bit about your childhood and what has shaped how you think about work achievement and problem solving today.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Even worse is China now, right? Fast forward, China now is viewed as one of the leading economy in the world, second largest, great at manufacturing, a lot of innovation and breakthroughs. But as I was growing up, it was actually a very poor country in its pivotal moment, going from a closed-door economy to an open economy back in the 80s and 90s. But what I want to fast forward is literally my journey after my college, taking my first part-time job, and then how I landed on my first real job. And so post-graduation from college back in Wisconsin from a school called Lawrence University, I came to the Bay Area and I had no job back then, but I really wanted to experience the workspace. And where I landed was an agent in a call center for a credit card company. And to be honest, that could have been one of the roughest starts for anybody who wants to start a career, but at the same time, really uh lends you the experience of appreciating how important it is to understand customer pain points. Because at the at the uh call center, people would only call you when they have problems. And that's the way you would realize hey, whether it's your product, your policy, your websites, uh, your customer service, etc., all comes through that front door. And this is where I really started to appreciate what it means to be the customer and to understand the customer's needs and pain points. So that's the very first job lasts about six months.

Hitesh Chudasama 3:54

Nice. So how did you navigate from being part of the customer uh support to going into technology?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Well, a couple of fronts. Number one is then I realized with that kind of job, I will never be able to really have a family and a housing of ARN. Secondarily, with my background, which is in mathematics and economics, I felt I could do a lot more with them with an advanced degree, uh more focused on data mining. So I did a master's degree in economics with a few classes in SQL and data mining after my my year in San Francisco. And this is where I helped to get my first real job as a data analyst at Capital One. And this is where I really start to understand the power of data and how you can use metrics and business insights to drive the business.

Hitesh Chudasama 4:41

Were there any particular skills that you learn as part of that first job that you leverage even in today's uh work environment?

SPEAKER_01 4:49

I think number one that really stuck with me was common sense. And sometimes we come up with products that we really think this is what people we need, or we really think this is gonna drive specific user behavior. But ultimately, it is sometimes it is the common sense that would would help you, at least from risk perspective, right? Um, one example I want to give was and the company was offering a product of a hundred dollar credit card that upon activation, the customers are charged a $35 fee. So immediately what happens is customers start to calling back and say, hey, you promised $100 and I only have $65. What's going on here? So what you will realize quickly is even though there are ways you feel like it's gonna drive growth, it's gonna drive revenue, but there is also associated cost, right? It could be operational costs, could be reputational costs and et cetera, associated with the product you're trying to roll out. So that's one big part that really stayed with me as I went through my first job, as well as going to the second job.

Hitesh Chudasama 5:46

We'd love to understand from you in regards to going from your first job, like as you were making decisions, what were some of the major decisions at the early stage of your career that you had to make that were challenging?

SPEAKER_01 5:57

I think the earlier part of my career, I was fortunate to have a very good team and have all the support and also very encouraging leadership who are focused on my strength. I think the subsequent next couple of stages, and the one I found in particular difficult, was when you start leaving a comfortable environment, when you leave your comfort zone, right? When you really push in a direction that you haven't done a lot in the past. So, for example, even though I have a math degree, I was put into a data science role after the first four or five years where I had a team, I became an IC individual contributor data scientist. Even though I was, let's say I was a capable person, but I didn't really enjoy that kind of work. I feel like I was a bit too isolated from understanding the business and drive the business results. So ultimately I I transitioned out of a data science role and become a business analyst uh with uh another financial services company.

Hitesh Chudasama 6:53

So did the opportunity kind of come to you or did you seek out the opportunity yourself?

SPEAKER_01 6:58

I I I looked for it, um, partly because of because my wife didn't want to move and I I needed to move where she was. So I looked for another job and joined her in San Francisco.

Hitesh Chudasama 7:07

So as you're navigating through these early decisions, was there a particular mentor or manager that you worked with that kind of helped push you in the right direction or guided you?

SPEAKER_01 7:18

I think doing most people's early journey, um, you will be fortunate to have a very empowering manager who understands you and supports you. But what I found most useful is it's the people, your peers. Uh it's the people of your similar age, similar experience who start working around the same time, or even your college friends who may not know everything, but they are very supportive and they may have different perspectives. I think it's only till maybe mid to the later stage of my career that I number one start to have mentors because it uh also takes time, right, to build that relationship and identify who you feel really comfortable and close to. And secondarily is you at you during your early career stage, you do tend to switch in multiple directions at times. And therefore, looking for a domain expertise or domain-specific mentor could also be difficult. So I would say during an early stage of a career, I was very fortunate to have a very good support group and friend group around. It's only till, let's say, almost 10-15 years into my career, I started having two to five folks I would would love to speak to on a regular basis about some of the things I go through.

Hitesh Chudasama 8:25

That's great. So it seems like you had a community of supporters with friends who were able to go, you were able to bounce off ideas and be able to get suggestions as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Right, right, right. One last thing for folks out there is don't forget you got your parents. They love you, and uh you'd be surprised how much they have gone through in their lifetime and to give you an honest opinion. It's one area I feel like sometimes we forget, right? And just like all of us growing up. But parents are great.

Hitesh Chudasama 8:50

As you transition into a business analyst role, was that an individual contributor role or was that like a manager role?

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Start with the individual role. And again, fortunate enough, within a couple of years, I was able to build a team of about five to ten folks under me. And it was a very unique role as well. It was uh working on risk management for credit card. I worked on first PayPal credit card portfolio. Back then, what was unique was number one, PayPal was unique by itself. Uh, number two was online application. Traditionally, a lot of the financial products were offered through regular mail. Um, we call it direct mail. This was an entirely digital-based platform. I think that gave me the opportunity to uh to really expand my uh learning in a subsequent journey, such as a London Club and Uber and eBay.

Hitesh Chudasama 9:37

So it seems like you joined as an IC and then you transitioned into management. How was that journey like? Is it something that an opportunity kind of opened up, or is it something that you were working towards management or leadership role?

SPEAKER_01 9:50

I wasn't seeking for it. I think it worked out naturally. Again, I was fortunate in the sense that I was with Capital One back then and Capital One was growing very fast. And so they moved people up the ladder also very fast, given how quickly they were hiring and they were looking for the junior managers. So if you if you were one of the top performers, naturally you became uh candidates to become managers quickly. So it was in some ways it's luck to in a growing company. Wonderful.

Hitesh Chudasama 10:17

How did that transition as you're going from an IC to a manager? How is that transition for you in regards to rather than just dealing with the your area but also dealing with people and managing people?

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah, for many of us going through from IC to managers to managing larger teams, let's say in the hundreds, at the early stage, I think most of the time you will find yourself still very much focused on how to solve problems. And you're in the trenches with them. You're writing code, for example, you're looking at the data together, you're coming with solutions together. So there's a lot of there's a big sense of, hey, we are in this together. My opinion, my input is equally valuable as everybody else. It's only when you start having layers on the you start to observe and start thinking about talents and organizational efficiency and uh sort of KPIs and goals for the team. If anything, those are the three biggest things I would uh at least share with this audience about as you start managing multiple layers of teams, what are the, let's say, top three things you will start to think about. Again, is I think talents, right? How do you recognize the best people on your team? Uh, how do you empower them? And second is organizational efficiency. The interesting story here, or the analogy I will share, is we always say organization is a bit like a garden. And if you don't prune once in a while, things kind of start to work over each other, right? Rosen responsibility, swim lanes, etc. And then finally is how do you establish the right KPIs and business goals that it's aligned with the business direction?

Hitesh Chudasama 11:51

So I know that as you're going through across different companies, you focused a lot more on trust and risk. How did that transition come about with bigger companies like eBay and uh Uber, where trust is really fundamental to the business?

SPEAKER_01 12:05

I think that's a great, great question for the folks in this in this field because even took me, I want to say, multiple years to truly understand and appreciate the difference as well as the overlap of the two functions. For somebody who came out of the financial services, managing you know credit risk or fraud risk, it's pretty straightforward. It's very much numbers-driven. You really think about your impact in terms of dollars. But once you start thinking about trust, there's so much more to it. There is the brand risk, there is the customer experience, and a lot of it is not necessarily net losses, right? Um, so take the example of let's say Uber or eBay. A lot of times what we think about is even from the very get-go, do people trust the platform? When they when somebody goes on Uber app, do they feel like they can trust Father? Well, right away I think that Uber made a big difference is you're able to see where the car is. And later on, you're able to share your ride. And you have ability to say, I can trust this platform with my kids, right? Or sending my my grandparents on a trip that's an hour long. So I think a lot of that actually has very little to do with net losses. Or at eBay, you know, you can think about, hey, if I get on the site, if the first thing I see is a counterfeit, I'll be very disappointed, right? Or extremely uh sort of very wide range of good stuff and bad stuff completely mixed together. So I think trust is both the almost like a person's first impression as well as you go through all of it. Um, when you have problems, how does the site, how does the company help you? Because you can't guarantee 100% satisfaction, but you what you can do is you can remediate and and try to resolve the problems in a tiny manner. And all of that, literally at the end of it, then you start talking about net losses. And by that point, you if you didn't do any of that up front, you probably would lose the customer. It doesn't matter how little your net loss is, you have already lost your customer, let's say two, three, five steps ahead or upstream.

Hitesh Chudasama 14:05

That's a good way of looking at it. And especially with the companies that you've been with, they've gone through hypergrowth.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Right.

Hitesh Chudasama 14:11

I know you're focusing on trust and risk, but then how do you balance that with innovation and growth that's taking place within the company as well?

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Yeah. I think number one, many folks want to position uh, and I think it's the right thing to right way to position risk and trust as a enabler. And the story I always tell with to people is, you know, uh during my very early part of my career, I was doing a risk uh policy recommendation in front of the risk policy committee. Our CFO sat next to me and they said, Hey, Z, what do you think makes a car go fast? And I was like, engine, excellent driver, suspension, aerodynamics. And he goes, No, if there's no brakes, you can't go anywhere, right? And really that really stayed with me is how do you break it in a way that people feel it's prudent, it's the right thing to do, and then they can really get on in the right direction, right? So I I'll take an easy example is for the longest time we feel 2FA, two-factor authentication or multi-factor authentication is such a challenge or selfie, right? But once it becomes standard, people would feel uncomfortable if if they're not going through that because they feel like the company's not protecting their accounts. So what I want to say is absolutely we want to balance growth and uh risk control, but at the same time, going way back is there are common sense things that people expect you to do as part of risk controls. And if we can think through that part, um there are frictions that actually make people feel good about. And then of course there are unwanted uh frictions.

Hitesh Chudasama 15:38

Some of the things you mentioned in regards to especially risk and trust, like with the different kinds of uh ways to authenticate users and making sure that they are who they say are with 2FA and other other avenues. But how have you seen risk evolve over the years when you had uh initially started off and how things have progressed over the years? How has the way you look at risk and trust over the years have has changed?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Fundamentally the way I would think about it is are there new challenges? And this is where I would say how things are being exploited are probably not new, right? What I see a lot of times is a repeat pattern, but it is the speed of the pattern, meaning, let's say in the age of AI, how much faster the velocity of the attack can be. Ultimately, if you think about it, dealing with risk or dealing with frost is almost like two, let's say two armies trying to battle against each other, right? And there's a lot of tests and learning on each side. If anything is uh the frost is learning all the time. So number one is do you understand your vulnerabilities? Have you addressed your vulnerabilities? And a lot of times it's not necessarily because of uh, you know, you didn't see it, it's simply because could just because the product itself or the flow itself has vulnerabilities that you need to understand. So if I would say it may not necessarily be evolve evolving over time, but it's simply how much faster uh things can be exploited is becoming increasingly concerning. You know, we can talk about Mythos, which is blocked, right? It's because in the age of AI, the vulnerabilities can be identified at much higher speed than than in the past.

Hitesh Chudasama 17:19

Yeah. I mean, staying on the topic of AI, I know you've gone through major technological shifts over the years, especially with cloud coming on board and major changes and uh definitely infrastructure as well. But like especially if you think about AI, like how do you see it reshaping businesses in the next two to five years? And like, are there certain areas that you're excited about, certain things that concern you?

SPEAKER_01 17:41

I think number one, the way I've shared with my teens, there's almost a multiple buckets of things. I think number one, if the ultimate goal is efficiency, faster learning, etc. The number one I think I found is there are at this point there are too many uh tools and applications, right? You do you have, you know, you have Athropic, you have Gemini, you have ChatGPT, and tens, if not hundreds, of other applications. Number one is to truly enable a team, because everybody learned differently, right? But if you truly give just let everybody test and learn, it's almost you have too many choices. Number one is a way for organization to really agree, let's say this tool is the best for now at least, right? And we will ask the majority of folks to do it. Number two, we thought about was the differentiation between sort of pure productivity uh enhancement uh tools versus uh agents, right? Agents are specialized in domains, etc. And the product the productivity agents we think about is how much faster, you know, let's say I can go through my emails or slacks or respond to people or schedule meetings or read through the presentations. Um and then there are how many and the agents itself it becomes more domain specific. Could it be you know building models or doing customer service work? But I think we also need to understand what tools to build in a way that will scale. What what we have observed is also just a lot of excitement and a curiosity and willingness to build. But most of us will if we leave it to ourselves, I think we tend to build for our own needs. And that kind of defeats the purpose of the AI, in my mind, is AI should be should enable us to scale quickly. So, how do we find a way to encourage people to use AI? But at the same time, the output itself is scalable, is applicable across the team, across different domains.

Hitesh Chudasama 19:29

As you look at your own career and adapt it to different technologies, especially now with AI, are there certain skills that you would recommend somebody who's especially going into risk and trust uh areas could focus on that will help them to prepare for the changes that will be happening?

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Very much dependent on your role, right? Even within risk domain, you know, there is account security, cyber attack, uh, there is credit risk, there's policy, there's data science, etc. I think number one is truly understand what tool you need to start with, right? So for example, as a policy manager, maybe what you need to really focus on is just doing market research, see what other people are what other sites and policies are, how you want to design your own policy and understand the user experience, right? And then Gemini is probably sufficient in that sense. If you're data scientists and you want to use uh AI to fight, let's say counterfeits or etc., some of the large language models or visual language mod uh visual models are also very good. So that's very possible. But then if you think about enterprise level, because if you want to start introducing tools into an enterprise, I do think there's also a critical balance of user access privilege. You don't want a tool that would access everything or have everything being shared. So what I would recommend is again is think about your role, think about what helps you do the job first versus just jumping in and saying, I want to learn everything. But you get it can quickly get overwhelming as well as disrupting.

Hitesh Chudasama 21:00

Wonderful. Going back to the leadership experience, is there maybe one or two particular uh moments that you find to be challenging?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Just personally and then possibly applicable for many of us out there is going from a sort of single-layer manager, meaning you are just wanting to manage one team versus managing multiple teams. I think this is uh probably the most challenging step, at least for me. This is when you need to start learning how to delegate and have the trust in the people who would take that work and perform to the degree that you would find it, let's say satisfactory or impactful. I think that that's where this is where, you know, uh when Lending Club was growing very fast, when I really started stepping up, managing the multi layered, this is very most critical. And in addition to that, there's also different functions. So when you think about it, you have a mixed team of, let's say, product management plus data scientists, plus policy managers. Plus operations, each team also hides its own needs as well if unique way of learning and working, et cetera. I think that's another complexity around managing a very large team. I think this is where, truly from a pivotal moment, this is where what I can think of.

Hitesh Chudasama 22:16

Is there any kind of like a framework that you use as the org grows that helps you get understand, you know, what are the different changes that are happening and then having transparency across through the changes that are happening within the organization?

SPEAKER_01 22:29

I think number one is you need to on you need to build that cohesion with your immediate directs. Those are the people who are in this with you day in and day out. You have to know their strength as well as areas of improvement. You have to understand the chemistry around them and then having them work in concert. Then number two, what I found is equally important is maybe even similar to our political world, right, is you can't have too many or too complex of goals and targets. It has to be distilled into something very simple and to the degree almost boring and repetitive that you can continue to tell people to drive towards the goal. Otherwise, what let's say, you know, you suddenly have great ideas and I have 20 different goals, that's impossible because then you lose the focus. So I think number two is how you can distill very complex and meaningful business goals to something you can compute continue to communicate. And to the point that don't feel like you're repeating yourself. In actuality, you do have to repeat yourself almost every month, almost every week, saying, hey guys, this is the thing, this is the single thing we have to do this this year. And those are a couple of things that would stay on top of my mind as I think about org uh or managing a larger org at this point.

Hitesh Chudasama 23:44

Wonderful. Zee, you you've been in your career for the past couple of decades that you worked across all various different companies, different uh sizes, and also team size as well. Are there particular areas or particular um moments that you're really proud of?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

I would say almost in every company I really take pride in the teens I've worked with. Obviously for different reasons. Um, for example, when I was in a startup, the pride was literally, you know, number one, team is extremely small, so everybody has to do everything, everybody has to really put in a lot of hours, as well as being able to deliver, right, with very limited resources. In a larger company, when I think about things that we can be proud of, it's also how you have changed or having a culture. Every company has a different culture, right? You can either be happy with the culture if you're lucky, or you in some ways you have to take the best of it and then improvise to the point that you think is effective for your team. So I think uh again, I've been fortunate too, even at Wilbert, right? I think he has his own reputation during the early days, you know, being super competitive and cutthroat and et cetera. But at the same time, that kind of energy, once you learn how to harness it, it is just fantastic. And so what I want to say is for folks out there is we change companies, and fortunate or unfortunately, is each company has his own culture. You do have to learn what that is, and then use that to your best sort of advantage to foster a mini culture that fits your working style, your leadership style, and then how you can use that to engage your cross-functional partners.

Hitesh Chudasama 25:19

Nice. Thanks for that. And uh one of the things that I find with some of the audience members who are going through transitions and changes, like if if you look back at your career, are there certain lessons or things that you do on a consistent basis that kind of help guide your career as you're navigating going forward?

SPEAKER_01 25:37

That's a that's a really good question because I think the one thing I want to add to it, Hitash, is we shouldn't make career decision in isolation in the sense that we always, at least to me, you know, it's a decision was made with my family, particularly with my wife. And the reason is sometimes you feel like you're making a lot of progress in one direction, um, but at the same time, you're also sacrificing certain aspects of your life. So whatever uh number one thing is take a step back and really think it through all the pros and cons. And once you're ready to commit, and hopefully you would also understand the downside of it, it's always the good side, otherwise we wouldn't make any changes. But there's also a downside associated with it. So and understand that downside, um, be mindful. I think the one really good example I gave was during the fintech early stages of fintech China was also doing really well, was growing extremely fast. And I was very tempted to move back because my parents was also there. But at the same time, I just had two kids. And and uh I said, you know, I was talking to my wife and said, should I just move back? And she said, How is it gonna work? Because I'm gonna stay here with the two kids. I said, Well, try to come back. And then she asked that a really interesting question. I said, Well, what are you gonna do for in five years? I said, Well, I'll make some money and I'll move back. And she's like, Well, how much money do you think is gonna be worth the five years of us being apart? Right. So there there are things I just think we we need to look at things holistically about career movements. And uh and also ultimately is you know, stick with it sometimes. It does take time. I also have seen cases where people make a career movement six months later, they're they're so disappointed or so so exhausted, they just wanna back out immediately. And the good thing is we you can always say, Hey, I can revert back. I have that option. But at the same time, uh if you truly just push through up and stick with it a little bit longer, and I also learned that too, um, because when I did my first top startup, I was just so overwhelmed or frustrated in the first three months. I was like, why am I here? But uh give yourself the credit and trust in yourself that you can go through those difficult conversations uh situations and you may come out much stronger and much better than you give yourself credit for.

Hitesh Chudasama 27:46

Yeah, and I love that perspective. One of the things you mentioned is making sure the fact that you're not deciding in a siloed kind of fashion, taking all the different aspects of your life into consideration. I know for my career a lot of times there's opportunities, but time away from family, the lost time is not something that you could recoup. So you want to make sure that you're thinking about it from a holistic perspective. And then the other aspect you mentioned is the fact that having patience, especially if you're going through something that's unknown, and in ensuring the fact that you're able to go ahead and keep that momentum and knowing the fact that eventually you'll be able to learn and be able to evolve within that new stages as well. I think that's really key because a lot of times there's a fear factor of unknowns. So a lot of times people feel like they want to get back into something that's comfortable, but give yourself a little bit more patience to be able to take the time to be able to learn. And it's okay if to just iterate on that particular area and be able to learn and evolve.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Exactly. Exactly. Because we also should will be surprised, I actually positively and pleasantly surprised how much we can push ourselves. Of course, not to the point of breaking, but we should give ourselves the confidence, right? The credit that we can deal with a lot of things to your point, that's unknown, that's uncomfortable. Yes. But ultimately you're learning and you will you will come out stronger. That's what I always believe in.

Hitesh Chudasama 29:03

Wonderful, nice. So, Z, as you're thinking about your next phase of your career, like how do you how are you thinking about navigating the next stage for yourself? And like, are there certain things that, especially as we talked about AI, you know, we talked about there's a lot of different kinds of opportunities. Of course, there's concerns in certain areas. Like, how do you go about navigating for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I think first of all, for people who are already have a job in the Silicon Valley, I want to say first thing really is we all have a wonderful opportunity in the sense that we're getting paid to learn something that we have has never been offered to us. So um, regardless how much anxiety and fear is out there that we're gonna get laid off or the machine is gonna take over, this is the go-to community that we have a stable job. Um, a lot of companies are willing to train their employees, particularly at eBay. Um, but this it's just I just I still think we should all be happy to and be glad to have this opportunity. Um, purely from my career perspective, like I said earlier, is if anything, I I feel like I still haven't learned enough about trust. I think I've done a lot on the risk side. But it's really up till recent, you know, let's say two to three years, that I truly appreciate how much of a difference when you have a real good trust foundation for your platform that difference will make to your users. This is one area I I'd love to continue my journey on around crafting the policy or building the right product experience and building the you know right uh interactions or customer support to further my journeys.

Hitesh Chudasama 30:38

Wonderful, nice. I love I love the learning mindset that you have in regards to it, so which is good. It's a continuous learning.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Right, exactly.

Hitesh Chudasama 30:44

Yeah, wonderful. Z really thank you for being here, sharing your experience, your journey with the audience. I know there's people that are going through different transitions, especially some of the things that you talked about, will help them in regards to at least navigating what are the different decisions that they would need to make and being able to learn through the experience that you shared. So thanks, thank you once again.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

You're more than welcome. I hope uh what I've shared uh can be helpful to folks out there. It's a great world. Um, a lot of things are happening, very exciting. It can be also very distress, distressful, but uh keep well and uh wishing you all the best. Thanks, thanks.