Hitesh Chudasama: 0:03

Hello everyone and welcome to Career Journeys Reviewed. Today we're excited to talk with someone whose fingerprints are all over the modern web, Hugh Williams. From Google to Microsoft to eBay, Hugh's career has shaped how millions of people experience technology every single day. Now he's channeling that same creative energy into new frontiers. From advising companies to co-founding Code for School, which is an Australian nonprofit teaching kids to code, and now hosting his new podcast, Tech Overflow, where he's helping bridge the technology gap and raise the bar for tech literacy everywhere. Definitely something to check out. And if that wasn't enough, Hugh's also an inventor with 38 patterns and 41 more pending, including one you've definitely used, Infinite Scroll. He's published over 115 research papers, a fellow of the US National Academy of Inventors, an honorary professor at RMIT University in Melbourne, Australia, and the author of a best-selling programming book. Outside of technology, Hugh's passion for growth continues. Whether it's from music to sports to fitness, he's involved in many different areas. A bit of a fun fact. He once completed 3,214 push-ups in just 20 days to raise money for charity. That's about 161 push-ups a day. Pretty impressive. We're thrilled to unpack Hugh's journey from a curious kid fascinated by computers to a global tech leader shaping the next generation of innovators. Hope you enjoyed this insightful conversation. So Hugh, I wanted to I'm curious to find out, like, what was your very first exposure to programming that sparked your lifelong passion for technology?

Hugh Williams: 2:07

Such a good question. Town had maybe 200 people. And uh they kind of realized that they weren't really getting ahead. You know, this was kind of a it was a it was a it was a tough job, hard work, you know, hard to make money, um, hard to have a sort of successful family and all that kind of stuff. And so my dad applied for a job um at a company called Esso, which is part of Exxon. So, you know, Exxon Mobil. Um, and uh it was a job as a as a computer programmer, which he'd never ever done in his life. He was um he had an electrical background actually, but he's like, I'm gonna apply for this uh this computer programming job. And so then they bought a bunch of books, um, Fortran books, which is you know a popular programming language in the 1970s. And uh my mum and dad taught themselves Fortran without a computer, sitting around the the uh the the table in our little humble little house. And then dad got the job. So he managed to managed to bluff his way through the interviews and actually get a job as a computer programmer in the 1970s, you know, working out with big mainframes, um, by teaching him and him and mum teaching themselves to program out of books. Um, but then there were books around the house. So I'm like, hmm, you know, and I guess I was seven or eight years old and books around the house, uh Fortran books, and mum and dad are really interested in Fortran. So I'm like, oh, I think I'll read these books as well. And then when we when we moved to um this little town called Sale, uh, where dad dad had this new job working for Esso, I now had uh on the weekend access to a mainframe computer. So I could uh I could use the mainframe computer, write little Fortran programs, give them to dad, dad could take them into work, um, he could run the programs for me, and then he'd bring home all the dot matrix printouts, and I could kind of look at the printouts and say, oh wow, I had a bug. And then I could next weekend write some different code, and then he could take that to work. And that went on for a while. Um and then eventually dad built us a computer. So he he got like an electronics magazine, and you know, it just had the circuit diagram, and he bought all of the parts and he basically soldered up a um very, very, very primitive home computer. Um, you know, I think it might have been 1978, 79, somewhere around there. Um so before things like the Radio Shack TRS-80 existed, it's like pre pre that, maybe two years before that. Uh so then I had a computer in my house, um, which I basically monopolized. Um so nobody else was really allowed to use it because I was always too busy writing code. And I was used to write games and music, get it to play sounds, these kinds of things. Uh, you know, but anyway, uh, I guess this is all kind of before I was 10 years old. It was just kind of my hobby.

Hitesh Chudasama: 4:59

That's an awesome story. Nice. So then from that point on, like I know that if, you know, as just look going through your career, you've been part of, you know, multiple different companies and been a key player across, you know, big tech giants as well, like Microsoft, eBay, Google. Maybe if you walk us through the path, you know, before you joined the companies, like how was your journey in regards to going from uh schooling to college and what made you want to go into? Seems like you were already uh programming at an early age. So, you know, what kept your uh passion going?

Hugh Williams: 5:30

Yeah, yeah, good question, Tesh. Yeah. Um, so I got into my teenage years, uh, and eventually I met somebody in this little town. His name's Matthew Cunliffe, who actually had the same hobby as me. So this town's got 12,000 people, and he also has a computer in his house. Um, and his dad also worked for SO. Uh, and so Matthew and I used to hang out on the weekends together and write adventure games. So we'd get together, and he was maybe Matthew's probably five years older than me or something. So, you know, um quite a lot older than me at school. And uh we used to get together on the weekends and we'd write these, we'd write these computer games. And I kind of did that all through my teenage years. Um, and then, you know, did the obvious thing, I guess, in the end. There's a bit of a backstory, but but in the end, I went, well, I'm obviously going to study computer science at university. So I eventually moved to Melbourne, which is, you know, the capital of the state that that I grew up in, um, and uh did a bachelor's degree in computer science, and then uh and then got a job um at the largest telecommunications company here in Australia, writing billing software and customer customer service software, which was pretty boring. Um though they had these giant, giant laser printers that had their own language, and so I learned all these intricacies of writing really complex software to control these giant laser printers that printed people's bills, and you know, these things just spewed bills out incredibly fast. Um, so anyway, lots of that kind of stuff. Um, I quit that after a while. I started my own company. Um we built we were a startup, I suppose. You know, that's what but now would be called a startup. Um I did that. What year was that, by the way? Well, that would have been 1991, okay, or maybe 92, somewhere around there. Um and I employed all my friends. So I got I got a couple of contracts. I got a I got a contract actually back with this telecommunications company. Um they kind of missed me. And so I employed a few friends of mine. Um I had sort of three or four friends working for me, and we basically were this little company, and you know, I'd charge them out at a certain rate and then you know, keep half. And uh so I was I was making good money when I was uh 22 years old, whatever it is. Uh it was it was good times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then um another complicated story, you're welcome to ask me, you are looking to article all the details of how the heck these things happen. But um I I met a guy and he convinced me that I should do a PhD in computer science. And at that time, the government scholarships were fairly generous, actually. But you know, you could kind of get, let's call it two-thirds of a reasonable wage for a software engineer. So just to be a PhD student. And so I'm like, great, I'll do a PhD then. And you know, and completely under misunderstood what a PhD was. You know, I thought it was a way where I'd get more qualified to get a better job in industry. But of course, it's a it's a research qualification, so you're actually becoming qualified to be a researcher, not not to be a more valuable industry employee. Um anyway, I did this PhD, I kept my company going on the side. So my friends were all still working for me. I had like an office in the city, I'd kind of go into the office in the morning, get everybody organized, you know, people are going to do work, I'd do a bit of work, and then I'd say, oh no, I need to go into university and do some PhD stuff, and then I'd go do some PhD stuff, and then I'd come back and, you know, do some more work. And I basically kept those things running in parallel for for three years. And at the end of that, I decided that uh I actually wanted to be a researcher. So, you know, I guess just which is unsurprising, I suppose, when you've done a PhD. And so I uh I took a job in uh university uh here in Melbourne um and became a sort of full-time academic, if you like. So, you know, I'd teach a couple of courses, um, I would do some research, I got some PhD students that I supervised, you know, applied for grants, all those kinds of things. And at that point, my little company kind of faded away. So I kind of went, uh, you know, I'm I I want to do this full-time and um, you know, occasionally I'd do I'd do some kind of consulting type gig, but but basically I became like a you know a full-time, a full-time academic, which was quite a twist really after sort of, you know, doing a startup and all that kind of stuff. But um yeah, but that kind of got me to towards the sort of the end of the 1990s, I guess.

Hitesh Chudasama: 9:40

You you you've done excellent in regards to some of the roles that you've taken up at some of these tech giants. So like maybe I know you started off with uh Microsoft. Maybe if you could walk us through that journey as you came in, and I believe were you an IC initially, and then did you move into management? Yeah, that's right.

Hugh Williams: 9:56

Uh um maybe just sort of tell you quickly the story of good getting to Microsoft from being an academic. Actually, I wind the story back a tiny bit. So I got I uh I got I got approached by Google in 1999, and they said, why don't you come to Google? Oh wow they're like, why don't you come to Google? And again, like you know, I'm a search researcher, I'm working on hardcore search stuff, you know, it's very applied the work I'm doing. Um so I went over and you know, I had the interview loop with Google in '99, um, got a got a job offer from Google. Um but at that point in time, it just wasn't the right time in my head to to move to the US and and and do that. You know, I was sort of on the, I was on the cusp of getting married. I was pretty happy doing what I was doing. I'd also say at the time, search was a terrible business. So so these things are awesome in hindsight, right? But but this is a point in time where every search engine company there's ever been has failed, it's gone broke. And now there's this new company that's got this clean, fast, cool search interface, but it doesn't have a business, right? So the ads business hasn't been invented at this point. It's just a, you know, it's a loss-making company that has a really good search engine that everybody loves. So, you know, and the job offer, I'm sort of overexplaining this because I'll obviously regret not taking the job offer, but um but the job offer the job offer was like less money than you needed to rent an apartment in the Bay Area, um, like less cash than the rent. And who knows what these option things are worth, right? Like hopefully they're worth something, but I actually have to, I'd actually have to, you know, draw down my bank balance to live. So I'm like, this doesn't seem and I'm about to get married and I want to have kids. So I'm like, this just doesn't seem like a very good idea, you know? Like this is this is um uh, you know, this is gonna be difficult. Um they they tried really, really hard to get me to come. So they actually offered my wife a job in the end. They said, Why don't you come work in the finance department? Because she's an accountant. They're like, hey, we'll give her a job too. Um so and you know, they went like, oh, maybe we should do this. Uh so they tried really, really hard to get me to come, but in the end, I went, no, I'm not coming. Um so but this is kind of in the back of my head now, right? Like that, you know, I I guess I've I've got validation that I'm um get a job in the US and you know, and I can and that that's something we could do. So then if I wind forward a bit, and I'm sorry I'm taking a long while to answer the question, but let's made the context interesting. Um, in in about 2004, at that point I was married. At that point, we'd had our two daughters. Um I I think I had a different set of kind of motivations in life, and one of which was I really wanted to get ahead. You know, I had a big mortgage, you know. Um, we built this house. Um, you know, I owed the bank $300,000, which was a lot of money. And uh, and I'm like, you know, I'm it's gonna take a really long time to pay this off as an academic. Uh my wife at this point's not working, and so I'm I really want to get ahead. And so when Microsoft came came calling uh and said, you know, would you consider taking a job at at Microsoft? Uh and I went over and met the team, you know, went through the interview process and got the offer. I went, hey, we could pay off our mortgage in like three, four years. Like if we save really, really hard. And that's a lot shorter than than 20 years, you know. Uh so um, so my wife and I decided that we'd, you know, we'd we'd take a very young family and move to the US, move up into Washington State and work for Microsoft. And the kids at the time were, you know, two and one. So it's a pretty courageous decision, honestly. Uh, but but it was really a, you know, yeah, the job was, it was the promise of the job was it was going to be amazing, but uh but it was really a financial decision, you know. And I think, I don't know, I don't know how you guys think about life, but I think there's two phases in life, pre-kids and post-kids, you know, like I think you think you think very, very differently before you have kids, and you think very, very differently after you've had kids. And uh, you know, I felt really responsible for my family financially, and um, you know, I wanted to get ahead, and this was a good way to do that. Um, so yes, that's how I kind of ended up uh ended up over at Microsoft. And you're right, Hitesh, going back to the very start of the very good question. Uh the job was an individual contributor job. Um, so it was basically like a you know semi-researcher but software engineer kind of person. And, you know, I was probably the you know, 20th software engineer to be uh to join the the the the fledgling uh search effort at at Microsoft. Oh no.

Han Yuan: 14:31

It must have been incredibly scary in some ways because it it sounded like you um you know spent most of your life in Australia and then becoming essentially uprooting everything that you knew, um, to come all the way out here, um, leaving friends, family behind. It it must have been quite quite different.

Hugh Williams: 14:50

Yeah, I mean it there's this huge difference. I mean, there's there's sort of cultural differences in sort of between um, you know, what it is to be an American in a mean average sense and what it is to be an Australian in a mean average sense, we could sort of talk about that. And that became more and more obvious to me over time, actually, that you know, that um the way I the way I go about things is different to how the mean average American goes about things and you know, learning to adapt to uh the American work culture in particular, you know, took some took more time than I thought and was more subtle than I thought. Um but it but in terms of like uh, you know, tech, I mean, I I I've often sort of looked back and thought, man, I wish I'd I wish I'd been born on the west coast of the US and been around, you know, and and I'd got my first job in the 1990s somewhere in the US instead of at a telecommunications company in Australia. I mean, I think uh, you know, Microsoft just opened my eyes really wide. You know, it's sort of like I remember a few formative conversations at Microsoft in the early days. Like I um I remember, you know, uh my boss's boss, this guy Ken Moss, who uh you you probably remember from from the eBay days. Ken eventually came to Microsoft. He was my boss's boss when I first joined uh when I first joined Microsoft. I remember him saying to me one day, you know, six to eight people can change the world, my friend. You don't need more than six or eight people, like, you know, go get back to work, go change the world. You know, my expectations are you will change the world. And that's when I was running the image search team at at Microsoft and things like that, you know, like, okay, so I'm expected to change the world, you know, like I'm expected to to aim incredibly high and do amazing work with a with a small, highly organized group of people and expect the best from them, and that's it, that's what Microsoft expects from us. You know, like that kind of thinking is just not how Australian tech thinks. You know, like the you'd have a you'd have a big team, lots of meetings, plenty of coffee, you wouldn't have the big audacious goals, you'd kind of cruise along stuff, it'd be a bit bureaucratic. I mean, which I think is characteristic of, you know, so many other places, places, some places in the US as well as many places outside of the US. But the expectation of Microsoft was like, you are going to change the world, you will have big, hairy, audacious goals, and you will do that lean, mean with a small group of people. And, you know, every day, every day you'll bring your A game and you'll do your best work. And we expect you to work incredibly hard and we expect you to be, you know, delivering at your maximum at all times was kind of the culture. And, you know, that was that was a big shock. I mean, obviously, if you're up for that, that's an incredibly invigorating thing to happen to you. You're like, okay, cool, you know, we're gonna change the world, you know, and I get to be a big part of that. Um, but culturally, that was very, very different to what I what I was used to.

Hitesh Chudasama: 17:38

You, the first time I heard BHAG, the which what you were mentioning, big hairy, audacious goal, was when you when you had come into eBay, and especially within the buyer experience and some of the things that you some of the changes that you made. So I guess my my next question for you is like across Microsoft, eBay, Google, like if you look back, what were some of the biggest challenges and maybe even some memorable moments of leading teams?

Hugh Williams: 18:02

Yeah, look, uh maybe I'll stick with the Microsoft theme for a second, but um you know, when I when I first arrived in Microsoft, like I said, I was an individual contributor. Um, I wound up being involved in kicking off the image search effort there. You know, Ken Um and his boss, I think had very high expectations for us as a as a team. They wanted us to to build something incredible and they wanted us to do it quickly. And, you know, the whole company was putting all of its assets behind us. You know, Bill Gates was personally involved. We used to spend time with him. Expectations were high, the team was incredible, you know, this was kind of a real moment. And I think, you know, I think uh, you know, in that in that in that story, uh, you know, I was involved in inventing Infinite Scroll, you know, um, Microsoft's got the patent for that. Um, most of the people who are on that patent are people from the image search team. But, you know, we were we were sort of pushed to the limit, and I think, I think everybody in that team, and it was a very diverse sort of heterogeneous team, if you like. It was a really quirky bunch of people, but I think everybody brought their A game and bought a different sort of A game. And I think that group of people did some you know incredibly important work. Um, and unsurprisingly, most of them have gone on to have really interesting careers and do really, really interesting things. You know, they've they've all turned into, you know, really great leaders or really deep, deep technologists or you know, whatever it is. But um, and we and I'd say in general we we kind of stay in touch too. Um but I but I think that was one of the most special experiences. I think at the time I thought it was really, really hard. Yeah, um you know, lots of lots of bad things happened, you know, it was really, really tough. Um, but when I look back, I kind of go, hey, we worked, we worked really, really hard and we really brought our A game and we did it as a team. And uh, I have a lot of fondness for that, for that early time, that early, really early time at at Microsoft. It was it was amazing.

Hitesh Chudasama: 19:56

Nice. And uh, talking about patterns just for our audience, um Hugh has thirty-eight US patents and you have, I believe, forty-one pending at this time. Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

Hugh Williams: 20:07

You wonder what's gonna happen with those pending ones. I guess I'll probably stop pending at some point and go away or turn into patents or something. Who knows?

Hitesh Chudasama: 20:12

So uh Hugh, uh based on, you know, the different kind of um, you know, work that you did across the different companies, and I know you also had career pivots over the years, you know, and now you're doing a lot more on the advising role. Like, how did you pivot towards that?

Hugh Williams: 20:27

I mean, like, I was hiking in um I was hiking in the hills uh near my house in California um in 2016 with my with my beautiful wife, and we were walking along and we were doing a little bit of estate planning stuff, you know, because we're sort of thinking about, you know, we should do some estate planning, should have a will, all that kind of thing. And uh I said to her, what would happen if I got hit by a bus? Like what would you what would you do? And she said, Oh, I'd just move straight back to Australia. And uh that was at a point when we'd lived in the US for like 12 years or something, we're all US citizens, you know, the kids had basically grown up in the US, and that sort of hit me a little bit like a freight train. I was like, Oh, so this isn't really home then. Uh, you know, and uh and so I said to her, Well, why are we here then? Um, you know, we've long paid off this mortgage, you know, we had this goal of paying off the mortgage of 300,000 bucks, and we've long done that. So what why are we here then? You know, that the girls, our eldest daughter Lucy's uh about to start high school in the US. Um I'm like, why are we here then? Uh if this isn't home. And she sort of looked at me and she said, Well, because of your career, I guess, you know, and you know, you you do you do really interesting things and you're happy and we're we're happy. But yeah, I guess it's just because of your career. And uh and I thought to myself, I don't want that to be the number one thing. You know, I I want I want I want health, family. Um, I want, you know, my my girls to grow up around their family. I want that to be the number one thing. So fairly quickly we decided we just wanted to move back to Australia. Um and we could afford to at that point, you know, like I could certainly keep uh, you know, I could could keep keep the foot down, you know, drive the career, make more money, you know, be more successful, do more things. I could certainly do that, but I didn't have to do that um at that point. And so we just went, let's move back to Australia. Um, which Google didn't like a whole lot. I was working at Google at the time. I hadn't been there that long. I kind of went and saw my boss and I said, I've decided to move back to Australia. And she just looked at me and said, What is going on? And I told her the story. Um, she's a very human person, actually, though. So I think um well, you know, when I left, she gave me a huge hug, which she'd never done before. But I think I think she sort of believed that I was really doing it for that reason. And uh maybe sort of respected me for it in the end. But moved back to Australia, that kind of destroyed my executive career. Like there wasn't really anything I I particularly wanted to do here in Australia that that was on the same part uh same sort of level as the things I'd done in the US. Um, so I kind of fell into doing advisory work. So, you know, I just try and find interesting companies that have got interesting problems where perhaps some of the experiences that I've had are helpful to those companies, um, which of course you guys know is all about working with people you want to work with, basically. Like, you know, you you you you know, you you you you talk to somebody and you say, Oh, we got heaps in common and I could really help you. And they're like, hey, I really want help. Um and, you know, and then I kind of end up connected to a company for a while. And, you know, usually that's talking to TOs, CPOs, teams who are working on things that I that I know something about, um, and just spending time with spending time with organizations really trying to help them, you know, be successful in one way or another. But I've kind of fallen into doing that because my executive career kind of ended really. Okay. And and I, you know, I like it. You know, and um I tend to work with a company from anywhere from maybe a year through to five plus years, depending on, you know, how that work evolves and whether I feel still feel like I can be can be useful to the company.

Han Yuan: 24:07

I gotta ask this question, Hugh. Um, because there's there's something about your your early story that jumped out at me, this you know, intense interest in making machines do things like you know, writing programs, building programs, and now we have probably the most incredible thing to happen for like decades, which is all this generative AI, LLM stuff. Um it strikes many of us that there's an incredible amount of opportunity out there. Have you have you thought about building and inventing something? I mean, you have all the you have all these pending patents, so you clearly have a lot of ideas. Like that is that a thought of yours?

Hugh Williams: 24:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It it is, Han. And and look, every now and then it gets to the top of the list, and I think I should just start something with a couple of friends and just really go for it. Um and I think I'm not too old to do it. I think though that, you know, the the um the reason I haven't though is, you know, if if I if I kind of look at myself in the mirror and think about it for a while, uh what I what I realize is that, you know, if you do a startup, you better be you better be serious about seven years of dedicated hard work. Like that's that's sort of the reality, right? Like, like, you know, could could get, you know, maybe maybe you work for a year and a half and you get acquired for $300 million and then you serve out your two years or three years, and you know, you sail off into the sunset can happen to people. But the reality is for most people, it's seven years approximately of really, really hard work before you get the opportunity to step back in one form or another. And I just I I think I don't don't yet have the belief that that's what I want to do is go seven years really, really hard on it on exactly one thing. Um so I think it's I think I'm just being honest with myself about that at the moment, but that could change, you know. Like I I think it's possible if I hit the right idea with the right people, I might say, yeah, okay, let's go. Let's go give this, let's go give this the up to seven years of maximum, maximum thrust.

Hitesh Chudasama: 26:15

So along the same line, Hugh, like, especially with so much changes happening in the tech world right now, like where where do you see? I mean, I know that um you've, you know, you have a lot of different inventions over the years, like, where do you see, you know, the future being, especially with the fast-moving tech landscape that we have at this point?

Hugh Williams: 26:34

Such a good question to Tesh. Very broad question. Um, I mean, look, like everybody else, I'm I'm pretty excited by generative AI. I think it's really, you know, it it's very interesting. Um, I think there's been a couple of interesting reports lately that have said that, you know, 90% of plus of of projects and companies so far have failed, and you know, that the the the hype is is well ahead of the delivery. And but but I think where, you know, if you if you go and work with young people today, and I'm sure you interact with lots of sort of younger people, um, most of them are very generative AI first in just about everything that they do, and you can see workflows being transformed and how people go about problems being transformed, particularly if you, again, interact with with young people and see how they go about their university or college studies or what they do in their first in their first job. So I think there's a, you know, I think there's a lot of transformational things going to happen, but I think so far the hype's maybe ahead of the delivery. Um, what what I would say though, you know, we've all worked in, we've all worked in commerce quite a bit and and marketplaces quite a bit, is that I see some I see some pretty significant trans, you know, transformation in for those areas. I mean, I think there's a there's a world that's not too far away where, you know, maybe that the traditional commerce site and the traditional marketplace doesn't exist in the form that it exists in. I think I think we're heading towards a world where it's going to be a lot more conversational. Um, and whether that means it's verbal or written or whatever, I I I don't know. But I think you can imagine some interface where you you express you express the needs that you have, and then you have a conversation, and then the back end of that you do a transaction, right? So let's imagine that uh we're all into a we're all going to a party on the in a couple of weeks and we're looking for the right gift and the right outfit. You can imagine describing the party and that we're all going together and describing our friend and and you know, uploading a photograph of the in invitation and all these things, and then ending up making a purchase of some clothing, getting that to us, and then making a purchase of a gift and having that sent to us, um, and that all happening within some kind of conversational interface and the payments occurring, you know, agents, you know, going and going and uh solving the payments problems in the background and things. So, you know, a little less of kind of, you know, you land on the home page, there's some offers, searching, view item, you know, clicking carts, you know, less of that, and a lot more of sort of let's talk about the problem. Um involving images, videos, whatever else it is, and then this and then and then the this tool helping us solve the problem and getting us the best offer to match that problem. And so I think there's you know, there's going to be a point where you know a lot of these commerce giants find themselves a little bit disintermediated. I think. I think they become APIs that are plugged into the back end of something else that's a pretty interesting aggregator, if you like. So I see that I see that world coming at us fast, and I don't know that there's a really good answer as to how the some of the commerce giants that that we know, um, I'm I'm not sure they have a really good answer as to how they're gonna play in that world just yet.

Hitesh Chudasama: 29:37

I totally agree. I think a lot of industries are gonna get disrupted, especially uh with the the ease of uh interactions with technology and a lot of things happening behind the scene.

Han Yuan: 29:49

One of the things that happened in the in the you know, after the the dot com crash was if you look at the Bay Area, something like 35-40 percent of the people in in tech lost their jobs, and we're we're seeing like you know some s similar rumblings right now. Um I'm curious what are your thoughts about what you think is going to happen to the field? Um like what is a software engineer in a world where somebody not a software engineer could, you know, write software.

Hugh Williams: 30:19

Yeah. Um I I don't know what's gonna happen. Um, I think I I I may I may maybe make a couple of different points. I mean, I think I think being a product manager who understands data science is probably a golden thing and will stay that way for quite a while yet, right? So if you're somebody who can understand business and customer problems and understand those well, and then you then you know enough about technology to understand how technology might solve those problems, you can frame those problems up. And particularly if you're somebody who quote unquote understands AI, I think, I think that's not going to get automated anytime soon. So I think I think the people who are connecting the problem to the solution, I think that's a that's a that's a fine, fine place to be. So I have no, I have no, I don't have any sleepless nights worrying about the best product managers out there and their value. Um I think if you are a software engineer and you understand data science well, so you quote unquote understand AI, uh you know, there's lots of stories in the news right now about how much folks uh in uh who have those skills are getting paid. Um so I again I don't worry about you a whole lot. Uh I think junior people are really interesting. There's some companies overreacting saying, let's stop employing junior people. But if you want to, if you want to employ people who understand how these tools can make you productive, then you employ junior people, right? You don't have to you don't have to run them through an education program to sort of get them to use quote unquote AI. They already are, right? So I think junior people are really, really interesting. And I think very senior people are still really, really interesting in software engineering because uh, you know, these tools aren't capable yet, maybe, of of architecting large systems and thinking through all the issues that come with a large system, you know, so thinking through sort of legal issues, security issues, scalability issues, you know, process issues, these these sort of large, you know, large sort of problems. And so you need seasoned senior people to think those kinds of things through. So I'm not too worried about the senior people. I think junior people are incredibly interesting. Maybe the people I'm worried about sort of is the middle level, the people who sort of aren't experienced enough necessarily to architect big systems and solve large problems. They may be a little bit slow to adopt the new tools. They're like, oh, I'm not sure about these new tools. Why do we need them? I've always done it this way. I think I I don't know. I worry about I worry about those folks in the middle a little bit, you know. Um and and I think, you know, the again, the other thing interesting thing about junior people is they can be as productive as these mid-level people really, really quickly if they're using these tools in the right way. Um so you can kind of get junior people who are as productive as senior people, and senior people who aren't as you know, aren't as experienced as the the real sort of distinguished principal, really senior level people. So I worry about that sort of middle band a bit. Um but but I don't know what we'll you know, I think I think these tools have evolved so much in six months. You know, I I don't know what I guess we're asymptoting to something, but uh I'd be really interested to see what if we had this conversation in a year, kind of what the what the field looks like. But I but I bet we look we're st we'd be still having a conversation where saying, gee, it's a good time to be a product manager, um, you know, an A-grade product manager. Gee, it's a good time to still be a senior person because somebody's got to orchestrate this whole thing. Like I think we're I think we're still saying those two things, but it'll be interesting to see what what's what's happened in, you know, the less senior parts of of software engineering.

Hitesh Chudasama: 33:42

You along the same line, uh especially when you're talking about emerging technologists, um, I know that you co co-founded uh Code for School, and this is a nonprofit where you have hundreds and thousands of students who are, you know, enrolled in it and learning about coding and programming. Like, w do you see uh like in regards to especially with Gen AI, like the impact that it's having and building them up to be able to join the workforce? Is that what the uh the program helps the the nonprofit?

Hugh Williams: 34:10

Yeah, yeah. Uh what it's about, Hitesh, is um, and thanks for bringing it up, is uh Code for Schools is really about making sure that Australian students get a a good education in what we call digital technology uh at school. And we aim at middle school. Um so we're look we're looking, we work with mostly with um middle schoolers. And what we're really making sure is the teachers feel equipped to help those students with their digital technology education. And I think, you know, that's really important today, and I think that'll still be really important in in three years or five years' time because at some level what what the students are learning is very fundamental problem solving, right? They're learning how to break down a large problem into sub-problems and break those sub-problems down into steps, and really, and yes, they're expressing that in Python code, so that's great, but really it's about fundamental problem solving and learning, you know, learning simple things like um, you know, that programs flow from the top to the bottom, that they have loops, that they have decisions in them, what a variable is, you know, the kinds of basic, but really basic building blocks of computer science. And of course, those things aren't going anywhere. Having that, that, that set of skills in your toolkit is important uh in any career you choose. Um, and you know, even if you're going to use generative AI to create something and that that that may become the way that people do things, you've still got to be a problem solver, right? You've still got to sort of break down a big problem into small problems and get these tools to to work on the problems. So, um, so I'm still optimistic that the charity work will um be as relevant in the future as it as it as it is today. And uh, you know, I'm still I'm very bullish on Australia's the possibility of Australia. You know, I think it's got a great education system, um, you know, it produces lots of bright young people, but I think what I'm worrying about is the kids gave me the opportunity to learn these skills that are becoming more and more important in school. And so that's the particular problem that that we're trying to solve here um with with Code for Schools, our our little charity.

Hitesh Chudasama: 36:04

Nice. Yeah, I I took a look at it and it just seems screwed the fact that every year you're adding on more and more students, which is great.

Hugh Williams: 36:10

Yeah, yeah, and it's a B Hag thing, Hitesh. We we started it uh, you know, in in um in 2018, and we said uh in 2019 we're gonna have eight schools involved. And then we said, and then we're gonna double it every year. And uh so far, so far, so good. So uh, and then obviously you get if you double if you double the number of schools every year, uh you slightly more than double the number of teachers every year. Um, and that uh more than doubles the number of classes that are taught every year, which slightly more than doubles the number of students that completed every year. And of course, if you upskill a teacher, they keep on teaching it, right? So if if I if I teach a teacher how to teach kids to code, then once they feel confident with that, they that's a lifelong skill that they can keep using. And we obviously get, you know, we get to count the students that they that they teach and it compounds really, really nicely. Yeah, that's been our goal and so far so good.

Han Yuan: 37:04

That's so impressive. It's such an incredible mission, especially right now, because I I feel like um we're we're in this like really slushy time where if you have generative AI and you're learning how to code, there's a real temptation to just use generative AI. And as a result, you may not end up learning something. And so kind of figuring out how to teach people how to code without relying on generative AI as a crutch is is, I think, a real problem because like generative AI can, I mean, that's it's really good at um amplifying the the Dunning-Kruger effect in all of us.

Hugh Williams: 37:43

Yeah, yeah, it is. And I think most of the people who uh predict that software engineers are gonna be made obsolete are people who uh suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect. You know, I haven't met too many software engineers who are predicting the software engineers are gonna be obsolete. Put it that way.

Hitesh Chudasama: 38:03

So if you're just pivot pivoting the conversation, it seems like, I mean, the different activities that you're doing right now, I know you're advising, and then you're also participating with the Code for School. And recently you're starting up uh this podcast, Tech Overflow. I had the privilege of listening to uh one of the early release um episodes that you had shared. And I think it's fantastic the fact that you're helping a lot of people and you know boiling down and simplifying technology for people and up-leveling their skill set. I think that's fantastic. Can you can you tell us a little bit more about the podcast?

Hugh Williams: 38:37

Yeah, thanks, Atish. That's very kind, and thanks for listening to the to the early episode. Um, I really appreciate you doing that. Um so my friend, my friend, uh, my friend uh Hannah Clayton Langton, who I've I've worked with uh for the last few years at one of the advisory gigs I'm doing, basically talked me into doing a podcast. She's like, I'm I'm a not I'm a smart person. She's very, very smart. Um, but I I just can't understand technology in my company. I can't understand what the software engineers do, they speak in acronyms the whole time. It's like this this secret world, and I and I want to understand. There's lots of people out there like me who want to understand technology because either we work in a tech enabled company or we work in a tech company, but we're not the technology team, and we really want to and I really want to understand it. Um, so she's like, Can you can you start teaching me stuff? You know, I've got I've got this long list of questions, they're good basic questions. I just I just want to learn these things. Um and and I said, Yeah, sure, happy to help. And then that very quickly turned into Hannah saying, rather than just you helping me, why don't we do a podcast? Like we could start recording these things as I'm learning. We could record it, and then we can release them out. And I'll I'll be busy learning things, and so will the audience. And I really think there's an audience for this. Um, which then very quickly turned into, you know, let's actually do this semi professionally in a reasonable way, hire an editor, get Some proper sound gear, you know. Uh, and that's sort of where we are. So the podcast uh launches Monday, September 15, which is probably uh a week or two uh in the in the past now. It's probably when this when your podcast comes out. Um it's called Tech Overflow. It should be available on every uh every podcast platform, uh, and we're seeing weekly episodes. And basically they're episodes that are about things that Hannah wants to understand and thinks the world wants to understand. And I'm kind of the expert guest, if you like, who shows up every week and Hannah's really the really the host. But it's been a ton of fun to record it. I know you guys must be having fun with your podcast too. Uh you learn a lot, I guess, through through actually trying to do it. It's a lot harder uh than than you think it's gonna be. I'm sure you guys have found that and mastered it better than than I have. We're having a we're Hannah and I are having a ton of fun and hopefully it hopefully it finds an audience.

Hitesh Chudasama: 40:56

Yeah. So the the episode that I listened to, I mean, I love the fact that how you break down things. I think this was in regards to um coding as well as release cycles and like the way you broke it down, providing examples. I think that's one of the the biggest things that I found it beneficial going through it. You talked about a real life scenario and you broke it down with Hannah and uh just making sure that people understood what took place and how to go ahead and translate because a lot of times the tech lingo and how to translate for people to understand what's happening, I think you did a fantastic job.

Hugh Williams: 41:27

So thanks, Itesh. Yeah, I guess it's that you know, it's that university academic background, having taught lots of courses and and all that kind of stuff, I guess is um give me some training and how to kind of break things down and explain things. And yeah, it's fun to it's fun to sort of go back to that and you know do it in a different format. And yeah, and we'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. Uh you know, go go with B Hags, and if you guys have got a if you guys have got a goal with your podcast, Hanna Hannah and I basically agreed if we get a thousand subscribers by the end of the first series of ten episodes, um, then we'll do a second series, and if we don't, we'll can it. So we'll we'll see if see if Hannah's right. She thinks there's a massive audience out there for it. Uh and hopefully, hopefully there is, and hopefully we go on and have a a second, third, and a fourth series. Because so far it's been a you know a ton of fun to to do.

Hitesh Chudasama: 42:08

Yeah, it's definitely going to be benefiting a lot of people. I hope so. Uh so my last question before we wrap up here is uh there's a lot our audience members who are going through different phases ofin their career, and some of them, you know, there there are certain concerns, especially with the rapid changes in technology. But if you had to give um one or two pieces of advice to them, especially looking back on your career and especially seeing where things are moving along, what are some of the things that you would inform the audience?

Hugh Williams: 42:37

Great question, my friend. Um look, I'll say, I'll say, I'll say two things. Um maybe I'll make up a third as I go. We'll see. Uh, but I'll say I'll say two things. I'll say the first thing is uh, you know, seize the day. Like grab opportunities that are put in front of you and and run at them. I think that's that's been my career. Um okay, so there was the Google misfire at some level. Like I'd be a billionaire if I'd taken the Google job. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Um, but but I'd say by and large, I just take opportunities. And I think that's uh that's allowed me to have a really interesting, fun life, live in, you know, live in multiple countries, you know, do lots of interesting things. Uh uh, you know, because I just I just run at stuff that seems like a good idea when it's presented to me. That's the first thing. I'd say the second thing, and it took me a long while to learn this, I think I'm much better at it today than than than I than I was earlier in my career. So just remember like life's long and it's all about relationships. You know? So um, you know, if you if you if you just sort of if you have the mindset that in whatever job you're doing, your job is to make your boss successful and make your peers successful. Like if that's your mindset, right? Like, hey, I'm here to, you know, my boss's got a tough job, they've got to do whatever it is they've got to do. And I I'm I'm here to help them. Like I'm genuinely here to support them and make them successful, and I'm here to make all these people around me successful as well. Like that, that's my job. I'm gonna be a great teammate and I'm gonna really help my my boss succeed. I think if you have that mindset and that's genuine, and you're genuinely helpful to people and you sort of play the long game, um, it'll it'll come back in a really good karma way to you in the end. Like, and and and that'll create these opportunities that you can take. So if I if I think back through my career, um, you know, I I I mentioned working at Microsoft earlier on. Um, boss's boss was a guy called Christopher Payne. So he was the vice president at Microsoft who started Search at Microsoft. So he he convinced Steve Ballmer and Bill Gates that, you know, search should happen at Microsoft. I didn't really know him that well at Microsoft, but you know, I worked really hard on image search. Image search went well. And then he did a startup. Startup got bought by eBay. First thing he did was call me and he said, Hey Hugh, why don't you come to eBay and help with the search effort at eBay? And I uh, you know, I thought it was a great opportunity. Um, and so I did that and I, you know, got my head down at eBay, worked really, really hard at eBay. Um, yeah, but that was a tough time. I know you guys probably look at the back of that and go, whoo, that was hard work. Um, it was definitely a tough time. Um, I worked really, really hard. And I think, you know, the the part of eBay that that I was lucky enough to work in was was reasonably successful, was a big part of the turnaround of eBay. Uh I was very loyal to Christopher. Um, and then when, you know, when I left eBay, you know, guess who called me again? And then we we wound up at Tinder. It didn't go so well. Um, you know, he he he he ended up leaving, then I left. And then very soon after that, he called me and he said, Do you want to become an advisor at DoorDash? And I said, Yeah, I'd love to be an advisor at DoorDash. And um, you know, I did my best to help him out at DoorDash, and and that worked out super well for him and for me as well. But, you know, I can give you multiple examples of things like that, but I think, you know, these opportunities come because you do the right thing by people, you kind of get your head down, you work really hard, you have their best interests at heart. Um, and I think, you know, I've got a lot better at that in the later part of my career than I was in the earlier part of my career. You know, I used to think it was about me getting ahead and me proving that I was better than the people around me, or it was a bit of a competition, or whatever it is. I think that's how I thought a little bit earlier in my career, and that's the wrong way to think. You know, the right way to think is, you know, um, I'm here to, I'm, I'm, I'm here to help the people around me. Um, that's that's my job. And I think if you do that, then opportunities come to you, and uh, and then you've just got to seize those opportunities when they come. You know, don't over procrastinate, just run at things that feel right with people you want to work with, and it'll probably turn out okay in the end. But that that that so that'd be my two pieces of advice. Take the opportunities and you know, look after the people around you. Uh-huh. Thank you so much, you. Hey, no worries, Hajesh. Good to see you.

Han Yuan: 46:53

Good to see you too, huh? You know, it was it was so incredible. I I think your last point, I think, really uh really hit home for me just because I I think uh thinking back to some of the things that you said, I I do think a lot of times um some of the opportunities that we have in life, part of it is hard work, um, but some of it is also um the luck that's created from the relationships that you have with other people. And so I I think that's um that that was a very wise piece of advice. Thank you, Hugh.

Hugh Williams: 47:22

Hey, no worries, huh? Good luck with the podcast. Thank you.

Han Yuan: 47:25

Thank you. This was awesome.